Please stop insulting our intelligence, Joe

By On July 5, 2011 · 43 Comments · In General Musings

There are certain people or things we make exceptions for or to which we give preferential treatment just because of what those things are. If my girlfriend makes a silly comment, I’m more likely to let it slide than if a friend of mine does. If I read a bad article by a certain writer who’s normally very good, I’ll give him or her the benefit of the doubt. When Mariano Rivera blows a save, I shrug it off. You get what I mean. Whether we like it or not, the same thing applies to Derek Jeter and the leadoff spot.

Derek Jeter is going to bat lead off because he is Derek Jeter, and no one is just coming out and saying it. Last night during the game, Michael Kay and John Flaherty were discussing the issue and mentioned that Joe Girardi said he doesn’t make decisions based on 2-3 week stretches (in re: Brett Gardner). That’s a good thing to hear, and I’m sure every manager thinks along the same way. And, to be fair, Gardner has been scuffling a bit since leaving for Chicago–.212/.317/.343/.663 not including last night’s game–so maybe there is something to taking him out of the leadoff spot. This begs the question, though, why was Gardner removed from the leadoff spot when he struggled in the first few weeks of the season? Eh, whatever, it’s not worth the hand-wringing, really.

But with Jeter, there have been over 1,000 plate appearances of mediocrity. The .336 OBP isn’t terrible, though, so that’s helping him stay afloat. Regardless, if anyone other than Derek Jeter was attached to those plate appearances, he would not be batting leadoff. Please, Joe Girardi, stop insulting our intelligence. We all know exactly why Derek Jeter is still batting leadoff: It’s because he’s Derek Jeter. Stop telling us it’s about numbers. Stop telling us it’s about comfort. Stop telling us it’s about performance. Based on all those things, I don’t think we can make a legitimate argument for Derek Jeter batting leadoff every day. He’s Derek Jeter and that’s why he’s batting leadoff. Just say it, Joe.

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43 Responses to Please stop insulting our intelligence, Joe

  1. Moshe Mandel says:
    July 5, 2011 at 11:14 am

    I agree that he’s lying, but I disagree with the premise that he is insulting our intelligence and should just say why Jeter is batting leadoff. Saying he’s getting special treatment because he is Jeter is just as likely to create clubhouse issues as actually moving him would. Joe cannot give the reason if he doesn’t want to defeat the purpose of the non-move in the first place.

    Reply
    • MJ Recanati says:
      July 5, 2011 at 11:36 am

      I’d amend your final sentence as follows:

      “Joe cannot give the reason.”

      Period. If we all know what the reason is and we know that it would be terribly impolitic for Girardi to tell us the reason then that’s all there is to it.

      I want Jeter batting no higher than seventh but I’m also not someone that enjoys banging my head against a brick wall. We all know it isn’t going to happen this year so we should just stop thinking or talking about it.

      Reply
      • Moshe Mandel says:
        July 5, 2011 at 11:43 am

        Well said.

        Reply
      • Adam B says:
        July 5, 2011 at 12:23 pm

        I just commented on RAB about this same thing and I will say it here as well, as much as Gardner is the better choice for leadoff. In October I want Derek Jeter to be the guy getting the most at-bats… I can live with Jeter batting leadoff right now even if I want him to take more walks…

        Reply
        • T.O. Chris says:
          July 5, 2011 at 6:03 pm

          I have seen this argument several times, and I’m afraid I don’t understand. Do you want Jeter to have the nost post-season ABs because of his past or because what he is now? Because they are two different things at this point. I don’t believe Jeter is going to be able to flip a switch, and become captain clutch as soon as the calender hits October. If anything the more pressurized atmosphere will only highlight Jeter’s weaknesses.

          Reply
    • says:
      July 5, 2011 at 1:01 pm

      I agree with Moshe’s comment.

      Reply
  2. Joe says:
    July 5, 2011 at 11:56 am

    I like swisher in the leadoff spot. Gets on base at a .370 clip, and takes a ton of pitches. Strikeouts would be the only issue I can see with him there.

    Reply
    • T.O. Chris says:
      July 5, 2011 at 5:27 pm

      I actually really like the platoon of Swisher and Gardner. It gives the lineup two distinct feels to it, and plays off of two different strengths depending on the pitcher. But I agree with MJ, Jeter won’t move this year, and there’s no reason to scream from the highest mountain top if all that is going to happen is you lose your voice.

      Reply
  3. Goose54 says:
    July 5, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    Would another manager do the same thing with Jeter? That’s the big question.

    I think there are a few signs that Joe’s weak in the clubhouse. For example after Posada pulled himself out of the lineup, Joe never did make Jorge bat ninth, which should have been a non-issue given the cover story.

    Reply
    • Tom Swift says:
      July 5, 2011 at 12:33 pm

      On the other hand, Posada has had a good stretch since he had his incident, so arguably Girardi handled that situation just right. I wanted to DFA Jorge just as much as anyone after he benched himself, but it looks like I was wrong. You also have to consider that Posada and Jeter and the rest are established stars who are not that much younger than Girardi. Joe will have more room to be authoritarian with the new generation coming up through the system.

      Reply
      • Goose54 says:
        July 5, 2011 at 1:36 pm

        If Joe was handling everything just right, he wouldn’t have put Posada in the lineup at ninth, which is what caused the whole issue to begin with.

        Besides, Posada didn’t start hitting for several weeks after the incident. You don’t put a player in the spot where he belongs in several weeks, you put them in the spot where they belong now.

        Not trying to rip on Joe or Posada for that matter. I actually like Joe quite a bit. Just trying to point out that when a manager says one thing, and then caves to the player, it’s a sign of weakness, and if he don’t get it under control, it has the potential to become ugly.

        Reply
      • Goose54 says:
        July 5, 2011 at 1:39 pm

        If Joe was handling everything just right, he wouldn’t have put Posada in the lineup at ninth, which is what caused the whole issue to begin with.

        Besides, Posada didn’t start hitting for several weeks after the incident. You don’t put a player in the spot where he belongs in several weeks, you put them in the spot where he belongs now.

        Not trying to rip on Joe or Posada for that matter. I actually like Joe quite a bit. Just trying to point out that when a manager says one thing, and then caves to the player, it’s a sign of weakness, and if he doesn’t get it under control, it has the potential to become ugly.

        Reply
    • MJ Recanati says:
      July 5, 2011 at 12:41 pm

      It’s possible that Joe is weak in the clubhouse; I can’t say for sure because I’m not in there.

      Assuming you’re right, however…it hasn’t seemed to matter, has it? The Yankees have won a World Series and appeared in consecutive ALCS in Girardi’s three-plus seasons at the helm. They have the best record in the AL this year. His weakness hasn’t come into play so, until it does, it’s really not something we need to worry about.

      Reply
      • Goose54 says:
        July 5, 2011 at 1:49 pm

        The Yankees have done GREAT – not denying that.

        My comment is absolutely pertinent to the topic, which is Jeter’s spot in the lineup, and Joe pussyfooting around the topic. That leads to the handling of Posada, ergo Joe’s leadership.

        Reply
        • MJ Recanati says:
          July 5, 2011 at 4:02 pm

          I don’t think Girardi is pussyfooting around the topic of Jeter batting leadoff. Girardi is simply being political which, whether we like it or not, is a big part of what being a manager (in both baseball and corprate terms) is all about.

          We’d love all our generals and leaders to be tough bastards like Douglas Macarthur. Macarthur, however, got fired. Girardi doesn’t see a reason to light a fire and start a shit-storm and neither do I.

          That doesn’t mean I don’t think Jeter shouldn’t be dropped in the order. It just means that the practical utility of such a move in baseball terms would be offset by other factors.

          Reply
          • Goose54 says:
            July 6, 2011 at 9:32 am

            I hope I don’t come across as argumentative, but you have to see the inconsistency in your statements. First, you don’t know about Joe’s leadership, because you’re not in the clubhouse. That’s a position I can agree with, we don’t know what’s going on behind closed doors.

            But, on the other hand, you know exactly why Joe hasn’t moved Jeter – because it’ll be handled incorrectly and cause a “shit storm.” Cite back to MacArthur’s leadership style, since that’s a negative example, and you’re assuming I want Joe to start kicking ass around the clubhouse.

            I get what you’re saying, and dare I say I probably know leadership better than most people – I led Marines in combat and I’m now a corporate executive. I know wholeheartedly that you get better results by tactfully approaching difficult situations and fostering mutual respect.

            But what you’re really saying, if you get past the “handling it wrongly” a’la MacArthur analogy, is that Jeter’s incorrigible. That may be a harsh word, but if Jeter’s would cause a shit-storm in the clubhouse over a tactful discussion from Joe over his spot in the lineup, then it applies.

            I don’t think this is the case, I really don’t. From what I heard about Jeter is he’s a class guy and would do what’s best for the team first.

            Also, I know we’re winning now, but this is just a discussion about topic of the post.

            Reply
            • MJ Recanati says:
              July 6, 2011 at 10:01 am

              I’m not saying Jeter’s incorrigible because I don’t know if he is or isn’t. Based on what we know, Jeter has always said and done the right thing and tries very hard to keep the focus on anyone or anything but himself.

              Having said that, however, we also know from third-party sources that Jeter has an incredible sense of pride and harbors grudges if he feels slighted in any way. We’ve gotten peeks into this aspect of his personality on a few occasions (most famously in his cold-shoulder treatment of Alex Rodriguez as a result of the Esquire article (and other perceived infractions) and most recently during his public comments about the contract negotiations that stung him).

              I infer that Jeter will try to do the right thing but, human being that he is, may succumb to a natural anger that would come from being dropped in the lineup.

              I’m not saying this will absolutely happen nor am I saying that Jeter would be in the wrong to react as any normal human being would. I’m saying that there’s a pretty decent chance that Jeter would take this “demotion” personally and the ramifications could have a range of outcomes (from trivial/negligible to quite unpleasant).

              What do the Yankees gain by demoting Jeter and risking those potentially unpleasant outcomes? Simply dropping Posada — a far less famous and historically important Yankee and baseball player — caused nearly a week of discussion. Dropping Jeter in the lineup would be L’Affaire Posada magnified severalfold.

              I guess what I’m not understanding is that if you know leadership — and based on your credentials you clearly do — why you’d think it makes sense to choose a course of action where the costs and benefits are both undefined*.

              *I am a saber guy so I know that there’s some tangible benefit to moving Jeter down in the lineup. I’ve said as much on several replies. But for a marginal win or two (at most), the downside is far too deep to calculate so I just don’t see the point. I fundamentally believe that the Yankees are making the playoffs whether Jeter bats first or ninth so the marginal win potential seems a little less important to me than, say, if we were the Twins trying to get back in the playoff race.

              Reply
              • Goose54 says:
                July 6, 2011 at 12:47 pm

                You’re right, you can’t calculate the downside to a political fallout. Honestly, it’s pretty hard to calculate the upside, since the Yankees are doing fairly well, and any weakness in lineup is mitigated by other factors.

                I just read “The Captain” which is fairly good. I like Jeter a lot, and it covers his pride quite a bit in the book. It also insinuates that Torre was afraid to coach Jeter, and the Yankees didn’t realize this until after Torre left – when they realized it, Jeter was open to the criticisms (about his fielding) and worked to resolve. The book is very much written by someone who loves Jeter, and with anything, it’s hard to tell one way or another.

                Really though, I hope I’m not giving the perception that Jeter should be batting 9th tomorrow or the world’s going to end. I think the lineup now is fine, they’re winning, and if it puts Jeter on track to hit 3000 on Friday night when I’m there, all the better.

                But to go back to my original point, which started this discussion, Joe has shown signs of caving to the players. I can’t see Bill Martin acting that way, but he coached when I was a kid, so I didn’t catch a lot of the interpersonal signals.

  4. clintfsu813 says:
    July 5, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    Glad to see you’re posting somewhere, MJ. ;) I also concur. We all know this issue isn’t going away ANYTIME soon tho. Unless of course he rakes.

    Reply
  5. clintfsu813 says:
    July 5, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    P.s. I do NOT agree the Joe is weak in the clubhouse.

    Reply
  6. Phil C says:
    July 5, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    Soon we’ll be having a similar discussion about where A-Rod should bat. While I think his power is dropping off, he’s still driving in a ton of runs. But maybe next year or the year after, will he still be a legitimate clean-up hitter?

    Reply
    • MJ Recanati says:
      July 5, 2011 at 1:13 pm

      Agreed, except in A-Rod’s case, there’s far less concern over how his feelings might be impacted and, obviously, he doesn’t have quite the same standing in the Yankee community.

      Reply
      • Phil C says:
        July 5, 2011 at 1:26 pm

        Very true. But I do think that he’ll still be batting clean-up longer than the fan base would like. While many of us accept the fact that Jeter will continue batting lead-off, it appears few of us are defending that position. (I don’t)

        Reply
        • T.O. Chris says:
          July 5, 2011 at 5:56 pm

          The big difference in that situation and this one is there is no clearcut player to take over that role. I think Cano’s eventual spot in the lineup should probably be the 3 hole, but Teixeira isn’t the ideal cleanup man. At some point they will have to decide if they want to drop Alex to 5th or 6th in the lineup, but that isn’t as drastic a drop as leadoff to 7th/8th/9th.

          Reply
          • Phil C says:
            July 5, 2011 at 6:19 pm

            Traditionally the teams best hitter bats 3rd and the power guy clean-up. So all things being equal in 2 years, Cano 3rd & Tex 4th might he a good combination. Remember, Mantle batted 3rd and Maris clean-up. Of course over the long run the Mick also had more power than Maris. Actually. I wouldn’t mind seeing Cano, Tex, & A-Rod right now.

            Reply
            • T.O. Chris says:
              July 5, 2011 at 6:30 pm

              I tend to want the teams best hitter batting 4th, that we if he comes up in the first inning he has someone on base, or he gets a clean inning in the 2nd. Cano however strikes me as a perfect 3 hole hitter, because of his combination of hits and power. This season though I have no problem with him protecting Alex, and since he hasn’t played quite as well as the past 2 seasons.

              I certainly wouldn’t want Teixeira batting ahead of Alex, if it means Alex is batting 5th. The only thing Mark has on Alex at the moment is home runs, Alex has the better batting average, and OBP. I think Teixeira’s spot in the order (with Cano hitting 3rd) would be 5th.

              Next season I would like to see the meat of the order be Granderson, Cano, Alex, Teixeira. The only problem you run into is having 3 lefties to start the game if you leadoff Gardner. Though I suppose you could platoon leadoff with Swisher, and if Grandy keeps up his bat against lefties it isn’t as big a deal.

              Reply
    • nyyankeefanforever says:
      July 5, 2011 at 5:58 pm

      I agree that don’t think the conversation over Alex’s place in the order will ever become anywhere near the issue it is with Derek’s. The difference between batting second through fifth (as Alex already has served in numerous times) or even sixth barely ripples the attention meter compared with Derek, whose career batting appearances have almost exclusively been confined to the first and second spots. Also adding to the Derek batting order drama is the fact he has so seldom been injured, whereas Alex’s sporadic and ever increasing needed rest days and periodic medical outages have, I think, have already conditioned everyone to the idea that he won’t be a daily fixture anywhere in the order as Derek has been over the years. Even Alex appears to have accepted this and graciously accepts — and even supports — his periodic sitdowns and changes in the order.

      Reply
      • T.O. Chris says:
        July 5, 2011 at 6:13 pm

        Agreed. The interesting thing with Alex is going to be how many more home runs he hits this season. As of now he is still showing he can be a .300/.370/.500+ player, but if loses his 30 home run ability already the future isn’t quite so clear. I think this year his power has been hampered by his hip nagging him again, but at a certain point you have to almost accept that injuries hampering his power will be the new norm.

        Montero also plays an interesting role in Alex’s future in the lineup, if he develops the bat many expect he should be somewhere in the 3-5 spot of the order. Maybe even leading one day to an order of Cano, Montero, Teixeira, and Alex, in the 3-6 spots. We’re obviously a while away from anything like that though. I do think eventually the move of Teix out of the 3 spot does have to be made though. He has the power, but he isn’t getting on base enough to continue hitting 3rd. Starting next year I would like to see him hitting 5th, and Cano take over in the 3 hole. Alex loses some protection I guess, but I’d rather see Cano getting the extra at bat.

        Reply
        • Phil C says:
          July 5, 2011 at 6:21 pm

          Opps, wrote my earlier reply before i saw this one. That would be an intriguing batting order in couple of years.

          Reply
  7. weiner ch says:
    July 5, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    I find 2 kind of criticism of Girardi overhere. The first: he should say out loud that he gives special treatment to Jeter. Moshe said that it defeats the purpose. I say: it is even worse than actually demoting him. You pay the price – and you get nothing in exchange. actually demoting him is bad enough, but at least you get something out of it.
    the second wave of criticism is hilarious. Okay, Girardi’s move is understandable – but he’s weak in the clubhouse. since no one was actually there, we can olny base it on the moves he’s making. Now, we agree that staying quiet here is the right move. So why is doing the right move a weakness? When you know saying something is right and yet you hold back then, yes, it is a weakness, but staying quiet when you supposed to stay quiet is obviously a strength.

    Reply
  8. nyyankeefanforever says:
    July 5, 2011 at 5:38 pm

    I don’t think there’s any question at all Joe’s seen by both players and team management as a player’s manager who is soft on certain individuals. That became quite self-evident — if it already wasn’t for a long time now — by the conference call between Derek, Randy Levine, Brian C and Hal Steinbrenner the morning after Derek backed up Jorge’s hissy over his place in the batting order vs Boston. Clearly, Joe was not in on that call because he couldn’t be expected to echo or back up the hard unambiguous words that Derek needed to hear on the subject. ….And just for the record, I heartily applauded Levine’s and Steinbrenner’s decision to respect Joe’s player relationships — which are necessarily a difficult tightrope walk at best — by excluding him from that bitch slap. I saw that as a major nod of support toward his management style by the higher ups, while allowing Joe to protect his relationships with Derek and Jorge by removing him from a conversation where his daily relationships with players would have to be compromised.

    Reply
    • T.O. Chris says:
      July 5, 2011 at 5:53 pm

      Joe’s in a weird place as a manager. He has to manage players he was teammates with, and had pre-established relationships with before ever taking over the job. I’m sure at times he has to remind both the players, and himself that he isn’t just another player in the clubhouse. I do think he is respected in the lockroom though, and I don’t believe he plays favorites in the mold of Torre.

      Reply
      • nyyankeefanforever says:
        July 5, 2011 at 6:12 pm

        Good lord, I would never suggest Joe plays favorites to the extent Torre did! There are numerous key players from his teams who say Joe T barely spoke to them during their entire time in pinstripes, while others from Torre’s playing days who didn’t even deserve to be in the lineup were his steady bench and batting practice buddies. But I do agree Joe G is in a weird place and does treat some players with a deference and rules he doesn’t apply to others. I can’t, for instance, even imagine how uncomfortable it must be for him to manage Jorge — the guy he replaced! — through some of his more outspoken and difficult moments last season and this, his final one. Not to mention the complex and long-standing interactions between the team’s ownership and players who pre-dated Joe’s arrival in the dugout as the skipper. On many levels, it’s certainly a Bronx Zoo of a different sort these days!

        Reply
        • T.O. Chris says:
          July 5, 2011 at 6:19 pm

          Torre’s biggest mistake was allowing Alex to be isolated in the clubhouse in the way he was. How fans can give the man a standing O is beyond me.

          What rules does he apply to some but not all? I’m sure there are some, but I can’t imagine he has a lit of “his guys” and “others”. The whole Jeter thing is really a side bar, because with his tenure, and name almost any manager would hold off on dumping Derek to the bottom of the order as long as possible.

          Reply
          • nyyankeefanforever says:
            July 5, 2011 at 6:36 pm

            Sorry, Chris, if I didnt state clearly enough: By “rules” I simply meant his managing style and decisions; ie recognizing and agreeing with you that he has understandably delayed a decision on dropping Derek in the order based on his performance, whereas he’s not been anywhere near as slow doing the same or even sitting others like Brett or Swish or Martin or even Curtis based on their trending and fluctuating performances. I also whole-heartedly agree Torre was a major contributor to Alex’s integration with the team; again, based on his penchant for playing favorites. It was obvious he never personally liked or respected him, and even appeared to enjoy leaving him to swing and twist in both the public and locker room winds of opinion.

            Reply
            • nyyankeefanforever says:
              July 5, 2011 at 6:42 pm

              Dang…”integration with” meant to be “segregation from” in my above post….sorry.

              Reply
            • T.O. Chris says:
              July 5, 2011 at 7:19 pm

              I didn’t understand what you meant, that’s my fault.

              The biggest thing with dropping Jeter in the lineup is once you do it, he isn’t climbing back up it again. With a guy like Swisher, who bats throughout the order anyway, you can drop him in the order and understand it isn’t permanent.

              The Jorge Posada thing was weird, and I don’t know of many managers who will ever have to deal with something like that. I think Joe handled it about as well as he could have though, and downplayed what was clearly outrage from Posada.

              Torre showed what kind of man he was in dropping Alex down to the 7th hole in the playoffs. No manager worth his salt would purposefully embarrass his MVP like that.

              Reply
  9. MJ Recanati says:
    July 6, 2011 at 5:40 pm

    @Goose54:

    I’m replying here because we ran out of reply options on our semi-private thread up there. :-)

    “Really though, I hope I’m not giving the perception that Jeter should be batting 9th tomorrow or the world’s going to end. I think the lineup now is fine, they’re winning, and if it puts Jeter on track to hit 3000 on Friday night when I’m there, all the better.”

    I’ll be there on Friday night as well. I’m rooting like hell for Jeter to get to 2,999 by the time I park my rear end in my seats in Section 213 so that, before my $10 beer even loses its head of foam, I can stand in anticipation of #3,000.

    If it were up to me, I’d bat Jeter 9th because that’s where a player of his limited skill and production belong at this point. Keep in mind that the original theme of this column was about Girardi insulting our intelligence. Jeter should be batting 9th. He isn’t because the political fallout potentially outweighs the tangible baseball-related gains. Girardi isn’t insulting our intelligence at all; we all know why Jeter is batting 1st and it need not be discussed. Not everything needs to be explained because sometimes you just know without talking about it.

    “But to go back to my original point, which started this discussion, Joe has shown signs of caving to the players. I can’t see Bill Martin acting that way, but he coached when I was a kid, so I didn’t catch a lot of the interpersonal signals.”

    I just haven’t seen evidence of that. The issue with Posada might be a decent argument for your point of view but, besides that, what else is there to support this claim? Further, does it even matter? Supposing that Girardi does cave to his players, is there any evidence to suggest that this hasn’t been an effective management tool for a team that is 338-232 (.593) in Girardi’s three-plus seasons as manager?

    Billy Martin is fondly remembered among Yankee fans because he was colorful and because he gave you the impression that he truly cared about being a member of the Yankee family as a former player and five-time manager. He was a successful guy, turned teams around and won pennants and World Series. But was his method the only way to achieve success? I’m less concerned with the type of control and authority Billy Martin would excercise in today’s clubhouse because, frankly, today’s clubhouse isn’t a place that Billy Martin would belong in. The days of abusive tyrants running sports teams are largely over.

    Reply

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