To clarify, the title of this post is meant to be read as sarcastically as possible.
Let me be the first to advise certain Yankee fans to take a step back from the ledge. Everything’s . Between Boston trading for and signing , the Yankees missing out on Cliff Lee and Brian Cashman not trading for , the masses are beginning to get a bit restless. It certainly doesn’t help when Joel Sherman authors panic-inducing columns like this, making it sound as though the Yankees — who still won 95 games in 2010 and basically have the same team intact — are all but doomed if they don’t make a trade for a big-time starter to fill one of the two gaping holes in the rotation.
However, the ridiculous plaints of “Cashman needs to go!” have to stop, right now. The expectations of the fanbase have gotten out of control, and calling for the firing of the general manager because Lee was never going to come to the Yankees to begin with and there was never going to be a fair trade that enabled Greinke to come to the Bronx is borderline absurd. What was Cashman supposed to do? Add an eighth year and another $25 million to the Lee offer? Ship Jesus Montero, Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances to Kansas City? Every GM in baseball knows the Yankees are desperate for pitching, and as a result, every GM is going to ask for a king’s ransom in return for any star pitcher Cashman inquires about. There’s a growing sentiment that the Yankees may be valuing their prospects a little too highly, but I’m certain Cashman would have no trouble parting with his top chips if the right trade presented itself.
The aforelinked Sherman piece includes the following passage:
“On a team with a $200 million payroll, Nova and Mitre probably should be the Nos. 6-7 starters; protection against injury, not main pieces.And exacerbating the situation in the AL East is that though the Yankees have been unable to address their major need, the Red Sox have added and , plus for bullpen depth.
‘Right now, they are very far behind the Red Sox,’ an NL official said. ‘I thought the Red Sox were more talented than the Yankees last year, but won 89 games because they had so many injuries. I don’t think the Yankees are facing a doomsday scenario. In fact, I think they make the playoffs. But Yankees vs. Red Sox, I don’t think those teams are close right now.’”
I understand the idea that a team with an aging core and $200 million payroll is expected to compete every season, but has anyone stopped to think that perhaps the way the team is currently constructed isn’t necessarily ideal? Unfortunately the team has been saddled with some lousy contracts, but just because the payroll is at a certain level it doesn’t mean the team should be mortgaging the future to compete in the present.
Am I comfortable going into the 2011 season with a rotation of ----? No, but if doesn’t come back and that ends up being the case, you know the team will eventually look to improve any which way it can as the season endures. People are acting as if the Yankees have no pitching, but a front three of Sabathia/Hughes/Burnett should be plenty competitive as long as Burnett can get back on track. A back end of Nova and Mitre is obviously less-than-inspiring, but I wouldn’t go in expecting an automatic loss every single time either of those pitchers toes the rubber. Maybe even will get another crack at the rotation (and no, the dream will never die). And if Nova and/or Mitre is getting shellacked a month or so into the year, would it kill the Yankees to actually see what they might have in the farm system for once? Perhaps the Yankees take a gamble and bring up one of Andrew Brackman, Betances or Banuelos. And even if one of those pitchers get bombed, as a Yankee fan wouldn’t you rather watch a prospect take his lumps than ?
Additional
ly, just because the Red Sox went out and filled several glaring holes, it does not mean the Yankees need to respond in kind with their own flashy moves. The Yankee team as currently constructed should still be very competitive, and it seems everyone is forgetting that the Bombers have to face 12 other American League teams as well — if all 162 games were against Boston then some level of nervousness would be warranted, but ultimately the Yankees need to worry about themselves and not what Theo Epstein is doing.
Sherman goes on to suggest the now-beyond-tired idea of the Yankees trying to acquire , but that’s just not happening. Neither is Josh Johnson. Nor even , another bandied-about name, now that he’s agreed to a contract extension with the Marlins. Sherman ends his piece by more or less implying that the Yankees are in grave peril if they don’t pull off a trade for a new member of the rotation, stating “At this moment, the Yankees are trying to project patience as they look for a way to thrive after unexpectedly falling off the Cliff,” but this is just blatant fear-mongering at its worse.
I am by no means saying the Yankees should already forfeit the 2011 season, but I do think fans need to recalibrate their expectations on what could be a transition year. Obviously there’s a concern that the core is only getting older, and I’m certainly as interested as anyone to see whether and can bounce back, or if they continue to deteriorate. Another bad season in 2011 for either player will make their 2012 outlooks rather grim, but that’s the price you pay when you lock up former superstars until they’re 40 years old. I can’t think of any other team in baseball that operates this way, and the thinking has always been that the Yankees can afford to do things like this, but the next few seasons could be pretty damning depending on how A-Rod and Jeter perform. Of course, if they can re-approach their 2009 levels of production, then this conversation is moot.
And you know what? I for one wouldn’t have a problem with a non-dominant Yankee team in 2011, as that’ll help weed out many of the bandwagon fans who can’t handle the idea that the Yankees don’t have five aces in the rotation. What kind of fan are you if you’re ready to panic at the first sign of duress? The whole point of following and supporting a baseball team is that you experience all of the ups and downs that come with it. Yankee fans really haven’t had to deal with any downs since the early 1990s, which is basically the longest run of sustained success in baseball. Maybe it’s time for the spoiled fanbase to take some lumps, and learn that not even Yankee money can buy everything, and that there are 29 other teams in baseball all competing for the same thing.
Those clamoring for Cashman’s head need to take a step back and remember that the team just won a Championship one season ago. Sure, some of the moves he’s made hasn’t worked out, but name me a GM with a perfect track record. You can’t run a baseball team if you’re not willing to take the occasional risk, and Cashman’s shown that when he feels the payoff is worth it, he’ll make certain gambles. Blaming last season on not re-signing or and trading away and is revisionist history at its finest. The Yankees may not have even made the playoffs if doesn’t rake to a .411 wOBA in September. Not only that, but the Yankees were a mere two wins from reaching the World Series and may have gotten there had they not fallen into a teamwide slump. Which goes to show you that even with a strong team that ran roughshod over the Twins in the first round, not even possessing a top-shelf offense can prevent a lineup from falling asleep.
Yankee fans need to be happy with what they have, namely a team that produced the best offense in baseball in 2010 despite down years from a third of its lineup; a pitching rotation headed by one of the five best pitchers on the planet, along with an exciting youngster who’s only going to get better and a veteran who we’ve all seen dominate and who can’t possibly be as bad as he was last season; and a strong bullpen anchored by the greatest closer that ever lived. Not to mention more money than anyone in baseball and the strongest farm system the franchise has had in years.
How quickly everyone forgets that the San Francisco Giants, who had the weakest offensive attack of all eight playoff teams, just won the World Series. A given team simply has to be good enough to get into the postseason, and once there, as we all know the hottest team typically wins out. If Cashman does nothing else significant before the beginning of the season, the Yankees will be fine. And I don’t think he’s quite done yet, even if the moves he ends up making are on the minor side.
The Yankees as presently constructed are still a playoff-caliber team, something that people seem to be losing sight of in the wake of the Lee saga. And if they don’t make the playoffs, so be it. A down year or two will only make the next Championship that much sweeter.
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I admit I was a little heated over the past few weeks occurrences and I posted some of my frustrations on other yankee blog sites.
Great article, Larry
To carry your point a step further, just because the Red Sox "filled glaring holes" doesn't mean they don't have others. Their starting rotation is hardly better than the Yankees': They can count on Lester and Buchholz, but Beckett and Dice-K are now officially injury-prone, and Lackey, once a reliable Yankee-killer, seems to have slown down a lot. Their bullpen? Who's their closer? Jenks was no great shakes this season, they've lost confidence in Papelbon, and if they have confidence in Bard, why get Jenks?
I couldn't have said this better myself…
What an excellent post! Hats off, Larry.
In follow-up conversation with several folks about this post, one aspect I didn't properly touch on that was broached by fellow Yankee fan Ross () is the fact that given that Yankee fans pay the most money we can ask for — and by extension expect — the best team possible. This point was also echoed today by Sherman in his Hardball blog, a forum that usually finds him to be far more rational than the persona he has cultivated in his regular columns.
I completely agree with the idea that the Yankees owe it to their fans to field the best product possible, and wasn't trying to argue in this post that the Yanks should stand pat and do nothing by any stretch of the imagination. However, I do think the fanbase needs to prepare itself for the possibility that nothing realistic or reasonable ends up presenting itself on the trade front, and that the team may have to make do with what it has, which really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be.
I think the yankees should act with patience and check what they got with banuelo brackman betances warren ,phelps we are better off playing these guys one of them is gonna be a good pitcher cashman was right when would nt trade phil hughes look what kind of pitcher he is right now I being following banuelo and he is going to be the next andy pettite and betances is going to a number 2 at least on any rotation if any of these pitcher pitch well enough we are going to better than the red sox in the long run
I would feel a lot more comfortable if Pettitte does indeed come back. As is, the internal options are less than inspiring, but passable.
Great Post, I can hardly deal with all this "Cashman needs to go!" or "The Red Sox are a kagillion times better than the Yankees!" nonsense.
"I'm certain Cashman would have no trouble parting with his top chips if the right trade presented itself."
Case and point; last year when a deal was in place swapping Jesus+ for none other than Cliff Lee.
Great Post Larry!! One thing that really jumped out at me was the part about filtering out the bandwagon fans. And honestly, I do feel that putting the strongest team on the field every year has spoiled us to the extent that when we witness a little weaker team(actually the same team as last year)we freak out and fold our cards even before the season begins. A measure of a true champion(team) is to find and create ways to win when faced w/ toughest adversities. Offensively, I believe Yankees are equally (if not better) matched to Red Sox; until they prove it otherwise. But till then, walk and talk like "27 time Champion";project confidence and swagger. And if you can't believe and support your team in tough times you don't deserve to cheer for them when they win.
Great read. Thanx for the rush!!
what I don't get is why Theo is the greatest GM ever for merely returning the Red Sox to the 2010 status quo – if the additions he's made has done that, and I'm not sure they have.
If Pettitte doesn't come back next year, then yes, I would say the 2011 Yankees might not be as good as the 2010 version of the team, but I still don't see any reason why they can't win 95 games.
i also don't get why everyone is acting like Burnett's career is over. Here is his 2010 ERA breakdown by month:
APR: 2.43 (5 games)
May: 4.03 (6 games)
June: 11.35 (5 games)
July: 2.00 (5 games)
Aug: 7.80 (5 games)
Sep: 6.14 (6 games)
Oct: 3.00 (1 game)
I know we expect a lot more than this from Burnett and his issues are baffling, but isn't it a bit silly to ignore his April and July (I would say his May was above average) and just focus on the horrors of June, Aug and Sep?
so no, the sky isn't falling. Are things not looking great if Pettitte doesn't come back? Yeah, that would REALLY suck, but whatcha gonna do? The Yankees still have a ton of talent and I still think they can win 95 games. as per usual, unless the yankees pitch well in the playoffs, they aren't going anywhere.
I’m fine with not trading any of the premier kids, such as Montero, Betances, and Banuelos.
But it’s asinine to say Cashman hasn’t had an awful off-season, which makes back-to-back bad off-seasons for Cashman. The signings of Nick “DL” Johnson and Chan “Homerun” Park last year were predictably bad. They, in fact, were moronic. “DL” had 10 trips to the DL in nine years when Cashman signed him: how could you not know he was likely to make it 11 trips in 10 years? That was a stupid, indefensible signing. Spare me the OBP bull; a player’s OBP when he’s on the DL is .000. That was predictable in Johnson’s case.
Similarly, Park was strictly an NL-quality pitcher. It was obvious from the start that he’d get his derriere kicked in the AL east, making that yet another indefensible signing.
Even though the Vazquez trade didn’t work out, that trade was an appropriate gamble. We gave up little in return for a potentially very good starter. I can’t blame Cashman for that one: Vazquez is just one of those guys who can’t do it in New York.
Unlike Mr. Koestler, however, I cannot give Cashman a pass on the Austin Jackson trade. We were told Jackson was still a year away from being major league ready, so a trade for Granderson was a smart move. Well, Jackson WAS major league ready. That’s not revisionist history, Mr. Koestler; that’s a fact, as evidenced by his second place finish in the Rookie of the Year voting. We gave up a very young and inexpensive CF with phenomenal range and a good bat, who may well develop into one of the best all-around centerfielders in baseball, for a soon-to-be 30-year-old CF, who may have all ready seen his best days.
Granderson is a good player and an exceptional person, but Mr. Koester can’t have it both ways. You can’t say be patient this year, but it was all right that the Yankees weren’t patient last year when they traded Jackson. And you say we might not have won last year without Granderson’s last month; but that doesn’t take in consideration what Jackson could have contributed all season to the Yankees’ chances.
I don’t blame Cashman for not being able to sign Lee and I certainly don’t blame him for Boston’s off-season moves: he can’t control those things. What I RIGHTLY blame him for is not having any type of Plan B in place if they failed to sign Lee. He obviously didn’t have a Plan B, and that’s indefensible for a general manager. That’s the GM’s job: to have contingency plans in place if Plan A falls through. Great GMs always have a Plan B in place: Cashman didn’t have one. You can’t give him a pass on that!
And don’t lecture me about spoiled Yankee fans. I’m 55-years-old; I suffered through the likes of Charley Smith, Steve Whitaker, and Jerry Kenney in the mid- and late-60s. Cashman is being paid premiere GM dollars and he’s been given a bountiful budget to ensure we have a legitimate shot at the World Series every year; and he’s done an awful job of it the past two off-seasons.
Cashman’s only great successes have involved a checkbook. Hell, any GM could have signed CC and Tex if they were working for the Yankees. You can hardly call those signings brilliant moves. Anyone with the Yankees’ bountiful budget would have made those moves.
We may still make the playoffs this year (although I doubt it), but there are at least four teams that are as good, if not better than us now (i.e., Red Sox, Tigers, White Sox, and Phillies). And we definitely don’t match up well against a team like the Phillies if we miraculously make it to the World Series.
Hey Wayne,
First off, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.
I'm not trying to say Brian Cashman is flawless or shouldn't be criticized by any means; just that I trust he knows what he's doing. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other GM in baseball I'd prefer to run the Yankees, with the exception of perhaps Billy Beane.
With regards to last year's offseason, Yankeeist co-author Mike penned a very thoughtful post on this back in October, and we ultimately concluded that Cashman made the right moves, but unfortunately the majority of them didn't work out.
I was an unabashed fan of the Nick Johnson signing, and while everyone was aware of his injury history I still feel it was a worthwhile gamble. It's unfortunate that Johnson simply can't stay healthy; had he been able to we might've been looking at a significantly different outcome for the Yankees in 2010. I don't think too many people are aware of this, but the Yankees actually posted their best monthly wOBAs of the season back in April and May, not coincidentally the months when Johnson was still in the lineup. I don't disagree that there was certainly a case for bringing Matsui back over Johnson, and I would've been plenty happy with that outcome, but once Matsui was off the table Johnson was clearly the next best target.
As far as Chan Ho Park goes, I was vehemently against that move from the get-go, and to this day am not sure why Cash wasted time on CHoP.
And with regards to the Granderson-Jackson deal, I'm pretty amazed at how many people continue to bemoan that trade.
I agree that the Granderson trade was a "win-now" move, and the fact is the Yankees viewed Granderson as a best-case scenario for AJax, and figured they may as well get that version of him now rather than hope he'd blossom into it. It doesn't help that Jackson surprised the heck out of everyone with an excellent rookie season, but you have to remember his numbers were fueled by an absurdly high .396 Batting Average on Balls in Play. While there are a select group of hitters who do consistently put up abnormally high BABIPs, it's generally not considered a repeatable skill. Jackson's also all batting average; I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone around the game who thinks Jackson will ever hit more than 10 home runs in a season.
While Grandy may have disappointed for much of the season, he's still a more dynamic and better overall player than Jackson. It's possible that that may not be the case three years from now, but even in the short-term Granderson still projects to be better than Jackson, who the CAIRO projection system has pegged for 1.5 WAR in 2010, compared to Granderson's 3.0 WAR.
Anyway, this comment will be continued in a new comment because Blogger apparently has character limits.
(previous comment continued)
My comment regarding "revisionist history" was directed at the folks who felt that the 2010 season would've turned out differently had the Yankees retained Matsui, Damon and Jackson, not whether Jackson was Major League-ready. And had he stayed in the Yankee system I find it highly unlikely that the team would've broken camp with Jackson as the starting centerfielder the way Detroit did, and so I'm not sure we can say Jackson being ML-ready was indeed fact as much as the Tigers somewhat surprisingly handing the leadoff slot to a player who many felt still needed seasoning in triple A.
If Jackson goes on to post a wOBA in the .340s next season and Granderson fails to crack .350, then I will be willing to revise my assessment of the deal, but in my estimation it needs more time before it can be properly evaluated.
Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I can have it both ways. I can support the Granderson-Jackson deal and I can also support Cashman not making any rash moves for a third or fourth starter just because some people are concerned that the youngsters in the system may not be ready to contribute.
I'd love to hear your suggestions for a Plan B in the aftermath of the Lee signing. Outside of Lee there hasn't been a single free agent starter worth pursuing, unless you were enamored of Jorge de La Rosa, who's basically the lefthanded version of A.J. Burnett. Greinke would've been a nice add, but between the asking price and the fact that he's an free agent in two seasons, I understand taking a pass.
There's still plenty of time this winter for Cash to make a move, but it seems highly unlikely that he'll end up moving big time chips, because I don't get the sense that there are any pitchers potentially on the trading block worth any of the Yankees' best trade chips.
Anyway, I do appreciate you taking the time to express your views, but until someone comes up with a realistic plan that Cashman could execute, nothing's going to change my pragmatic view of his offseason machinations.
And ultimately, while it makes for good banter, it's pointless to get hung up on transactions that already happened; it's not like we can undo them. That's why I generally try to find the silver lining in most of the moves the Yankees make; otherwise how can you possibly enjoy following the team? Sure, some are indefensible — Park once again springs to mind — but for the most part I think Cashman does everything he can to put the team in the best possible position to win; ultimately it's up to the players to perform to their abilities, and if they don't, you can't blame that on the General Manager.
Larry,
I think you make a lot of good points, but I don't agree that we fans should have to suggest a Plan B for us to believe that one could have very well existed (and I do think missing out on Greinke was a bad idea if there was any chance we could have pulled it off). Cash gets paid to do this and often times does seem to have an unexpected Plan B. He didn't this time. Saying 'patience' is really just akin to saying that he didn't have any Plan B. I can think of other GMs that I would prefer, but neither my criticisms of his moves since the end of 2009 nor that fact make me think he should be fired. I believe in a three year grace period for any GM/manager/coach that manages a championship. So, I am going to keep the faith and, as always, hope that this flawed team can still deliver when it counts.
Anthony,
I think that's a great attitude to have.
I also think that people are quickly forgetting that it's not as if the Yankees just morphed into the 2010 Orioles because they don't have Lee or Greinke.
Additionally, there are still more than 50 days before spring training starts. Just because Cashman hasn't made any significant moves yet doesn't mean nothing is happening behind the scenes. Obviously December tends to be the busiest month for offseason news, but considering that every team in baseball knows he needs pitching, I'd imagine he's probably waiting for asking prices to fall. The Randy Johnson trade was done in January 2005; it's not unprecedented that a move could still go down next month.
If Cash doesn't do anything between now and the beginning of the season, the restless masses will only grow louder, but no team is just going to hand the Yankees their ace. I may be in the minority, but I still think the team will be OK even if they don't make any outside additions. At some point the team will need to see whether the hype in the farm system that they've been so reluctant to part with via trade can actually contribute at the Major League level.
"I for one wouldn't have a problem with a non-dominant Yankee team in 2011, as that'll help weed out many of the bandwagon fans who can't handle the idea that the Yankees don't have five aces in the rotation. What kind of fan are you if you're ready to panic at the first sign of duress? The whole point of following and supporting a baseball team is that you experience all of the ups and downs that come with it. Yankee fans really haven't had to deal with any downs since the early 1990s, which is basically the longest run of sustained success in baseball. Maybe it's time for the spoiled fanbase to take some lumps, and learn that not even Yankee money can buy everything, and that there are 29 other teams in baseball all competing for the same thing."
Larry? Is that really you? My boy is learning…..
Ha, it would appear the old saw about old dogs may not be entirely accurate.
Nice……
In my opinion as much as i want the yankees to win all the time the yankees need to stand pat and for the right time to make a trade meaning there might be a better pitcher later that we can trade for if you look at every team they are locking every good player and that mean that the yankees are in no position to trade the very few position player that we have give young kids a chance like some guysaid in a post here the young kids are not gonna do any worse than vazquez and this coming from a puertorican lol the dude cant handle NY any other place he is(cy young)lol go yankees att jose
Mr. Koestler, I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to my earlier post at such length. We disagree on some points and agree on many others, but that’s just part of being avid baseball fans.
As to your question about my Plan B, my answer lies as much in Cashman’s mishandling of the Lee negotiations as in who I would have traded for. Here’s what I mean.
You never want to deal from weakness when negotiating with a player. So, BEFORE I made an offer to Lee, I would have already have had the framework for a trade in place. Let’s use Greinke as an example, since we know he was available. I would have spoken with KC — BEFORE they knew we were desperate for another pitcher — and asked what they were wanted in return for Greinke.
After we negotiated the parameters for a potential deal with KC, I would have gone to Lee and said “Our offer is $25 million per year for five years with a vesting option for a sixth year, based on his Cy Young vote totals over the first five years.” Then I would have told him “We have a trade lined up for another starter, and we have to get back to the other team in 72 hours (or less) or that deals off, so we need a response back from you in that timeframe. We either agree on the framework of a deal in the next three days, or we move on to the other deal.”
This would have left the Yankees in a power position in both negotiations. If the Yankees pulled out of the Lee negotiations, Lee’s leverage would have gone down with Texas and, ultimately, Philadelphia. It would also have told us whether Lee really wanted to be a Yankee. Moreover, by negotiating with KC BEFORE we lost out on Lee, we would have been in a much better negotiating position with them, or whatever team we were negotiating with.
Cashman screwed up, poor and simple. He was never operating from a power position. Now everyone in baseball knows he’s desperate for pitching, and any potential deal will cost us twice as much as it should have cost us . . . which is why Cashman wisely doesn’t anticipate doing a deal now.
By the way, if Lee did accept our offer, I would have immediately gone to CC and said “CC, in return for waving your opt out option and out of respect to you for what you’ve already done for us, we want to up your deal to $25 million for the remainder of your contract.”
If Lee said he needed more time to consider his options, I would have said “I understand your position, but we need to do what’s best for the Yankees, so we’re going to withdraw our offer and make the trade we alluded to earlier. If you truly want to be a Yankee, we need an answer from you now.”
Then if he rejected the deal, I would have consummated the deal with KC, or whoever our trading partner was.
One last opinion, Mr. Koestler: By allowing the Lee negotiations to drag on, Cashman gave Phillie time to consider the potential W.S. ramifications of Lee signing with the Yankees. If Phillie had to face CC and Lee in the series, along with Pettitte and/or Hughes, they realized their chances of winning would be no better than 50-50. So Cashman’s inept handling of the negotiations (i.e., dealing from weakness, instead of strength) allowed Phillie into the negotiations and, ultimately, cost us Lee.
…comment continued
In hindsight, I think two things are pretty clear now with regards to the Lee situation: (1) Lee very badly wanted to go back to the Phillies, and Braunecker's stall tactics were simply to allow Ruben Amaro to finally put together a package close enough to what the Yankees and Texas were offering that Lee could feel good about turning down the other offers to go take less guaranteed money in Philly; and (2) The Yankees knew about Lee's desire to go back to Philly all along.
In fact, the more I think about #2, the more it makes sense now. After the 2008 season, the Yankees weren't shy about not only offering a massive initial offer right from the get-go, but did so in such a manner that it essentially scared every other team out of the bidding.
If the Yankees really and truly had their hearts set on Lee no matter the cost, they would've made it known much earlier on that they were willing to completely outbid all comers. If it became public knowledge that the Yankees were offering a Sabathia type deal back in early November, chances are the Lee sweepstakes go down quite a bit different. We know Lee claimed that "at a certain point, it's enough money," but I highly doubt Philly even thinks about getting involved if they know a $160 million offer is out there.
So in this case, perhaps Cashman is to blame for not blowing everyone out of the water at a much earlier stage of the game. By waiting around he enabled the Phillies to get involved and at that point it was a fait accompli.
comment to be continued…
But given that this is the way the Yankees chose to handle this negotiation, it tells me that they were pretty much convinced he was going back to Philly and that no amount of realistic money was going to change Lee's mind. Just because the general public wasn't aware of the fact that Lee apparently had this burning desire to return to Philly, I'm certain the Yankees were aware of this particular bit of information regarding a player they were willing to give upwards of $23 million a year. For as much as everyone talks about the Yankees throwing their money at every problem, there's also something to be said for their big-ticket free agents also wanting to come here, and if the Yankees knew Philly was strong in Lee's heart, I'm certain that's why they didn't end up pursuing him as aggressively as they otherwise might have.
Sure, Cash could've come in with something insane, like a 7-year, $175 million package, but as great as Cliff Lee is, at some point you have to know when to step away and realize that $25M/year for a 32-year-old pitcher may not end up being the best investment.
of course, I suppose we could make the argument that they still should've broken the bank for Lee at any cost, given that the window of championship opportunity for the current core of Yankees is dwindling, but short-term thinking like that can really hinder a franchise, even as one as powerful as the Yankees.
While Lee certainly would've made the Yankees better in 2011 and beyond, and as Yankee fans we now get to worry about the rotation for the remainder of the winter, I think that we'll end up being pleasantly surprised if the Yankees do actually give some of the promising arms in the system a chance to contribute, and who knows, by 2015 a 36-year-old Cliff Lee could end up paling in comparison to one of the Yankees' mid-twenties youngsters. That is, assuming they don't screw up their development like they did with Joba, who I'll be addressing later today.
Blast, it looks like Blogger ate part 1 of my three-part comment. Here's the beginning of the previous two comments:
Hey Wayne,
Before I respond, I'd like to thank you again for taking the time to author a well-thought-out, well-reasoned and rational response. Far too often when commenters disagree on a given point the level of discourse devolves into mindless insults, and it's heartening to see someone as passionate as yourself respond in an intellectual and adult manner. I hope that you'll become site regular, even if we don't see eye to eye on everything.
Though you and I may disagree to the extent that Cashman should be blamed, I find myself agreeing with much of what you say.
I think your plan B makes a lot of sense; however, without being privy to the daily wheelings and dealings of our GM, we have no way of knowing what exactly Cashman was doing while waiting on Lee other than what the major news outlets report.
We do know that there were ongoing conversations about Greinke, as all throughout November the Yankees were named as potential trade partners with the Royals. We don't know how far those trade talks with Dayton Moore may have gone, and my guess is that the price in November wasn't any different than it ended up being after the Lee non-signing, and that the team ultimately determined that surrendering Jesus Montero, Eduardo Nunez and Manny Banuelos/Dellin Betances was too high a price for a pitcher they'd only get around 70 starts out of before hitting free agency.
So I do think it very likely that Cashman discussed a Greinke trade pre-Lee, but couldn't find a suitable framework.
That being said, the way the Cliff Lee saga ended up playing out is rather baffling. We know that Braunecker told teams not to even bother making offers until the Winter Meetings, and then during the Winter Meetings he supposedly still wasn't taking offers. Remember, it wasn't until the last day of the meetings that we got word that the Yankees had finally submitted a formal offer.
Yanks are the only team that buys 'high' and sells 'low'.I dont understand how this is good 'business'.Then, they are forced to crisis manage. the moves Cashman should have made over the last several years would have made being 'patient' more tolerable THIS year. Im ALL for being patient and Im not a typical Yankee fan that has to win right away and with big name free agents. Im ALL for building w the farm, maybe even somn else's farm as well. I would not be calling for Cashman to go if any of this was the case. However, Mark(injury plagued and outta the game for 4 yrs) Prior; Russell(fading catcher and recovering from a hip injury) Martin;Pedro(reject from the pitiful Mets bullpen) Feliciano and Luis(outta baseball for 2 years)Vizcaino….really??
Why is it that everyone keeps talking about how the RedSox added Gonzalez and Crawford, they also subtracted Beltre and Martinez.
I would call that a wash. Also, Beckett needs to bounce back as much as Burnett, also a wash. It will be a dogfight as always, and should be fun as always.
Really?
Good article.
People seem to forget that the offseason is not over, they can upgrade in spring training, and always swing something at the trade deadline in 2011.
They will compete. They are not going to have a losing season, and should be fine. Not to mention they have a lot of young guys that could get nods in 2011.
Pass the Kool-Aid Rev Jones…
Mr. Koestler – you talk like a loser, trying to justify the sad state of this currnet Yankees team. In case you missed the last 20 years, these New York Yankees do not "rebuild." They retool and try to win a chmapionship every year. And, in case you missed it, we tried the "build from within" concept in regard to the pitching staff, and where did that get us in '08? Cashman stinks – he struck out on Halliday, Lee (three times), Oswalt, Lilly, Haren, Santana, and on and on. He puts way too much value on prospects that, in most cases, never pan out. Prospects are mostly pieces to use in trades to get established major leaguers. He put all of his eggs in one basket with Lee and now he's sitting paralyzed while one free agent after another disappears off the board. This guy is a disaster and its time to send him packing. Get ready for a long season. Let's not forget that last season, without Pettite in the rotaton, we were barely a .500 team over the last 70 games or so. Look for much of the same in '11.
I think most fans are comfortable with the Yanks not making a spectacular splash this offseason. The problem is that I'm not convinced that the FO is willing to take that same step back – hence their waiting around for an ideal trade or upgrade to emerge when they could be filling their gaps with replacement-level roleplayers and gearing up for a 90 win season.
I didn't read all the comments so I don't know if this has been touched upon, but how come no one seems to mention that the Red Sox essentially lost Adrian Beltre (who had an unbelievable year for them) and Victor Martinez and replaced them with Adrian Gonzalez and Carl Crawford? Beltre and Martinez killed the Yankees in their short time with the Sox (although for some reason it seems that Beltre did really well against the Yanks with the Mariners, too). I mean, it's annoying already – the Sox lost two pieces and filled them with others which has NOTHING to do with the Yankees who are bringing the same 95-win team back minus (maybe) Pettitte. Let's see how the rest of the offseason goes and worry about where the Yanks are at the all-star break.
Of course it has to be an anonymous user who insults the author and proves everything this article was written about absolutely true. If you're going to be a bomb thrower and make an ass of yourself, at least have the guts to leave your name.
Jason M, my name is Steve B. The simple fact is that you can't handle the truth, which makes you a jackass. In the second half of 2010, the Yankees were a .500 team covering over 70 games. That's without Pettite, a terrible Burnett (by the way, at his best he's no better than an average pitcher), a tired Hughes and with kerry Wood. Wood is gone, Pettite is gone, Burnett is Burnett, Hughes is a 1st half pitcher, Nova is a 4-5 inning pitcher at best and Mitre couldn't start for the Pirates. So, what does Cashman do to address these needs? he brings in a mediocre catcher who has a history of injuries and can't hit and a situational lefty who can't pitch to righties, Mark Prior (give me a break) and Luis Vizcaino (are you kidding me!!??. He has done basically nothing to address his pathetic starting rotation and address the fact he has no set-up man in the bullpen. Remember, we tried Joba and Roberston in the set-up role and what did that get us – KERRY WOOD. So, you tell me, what the hell is Cashman there for? And, what is he doing to address our needs? This author sounds like he's on Cashman's payroll and I won't stand for BS.
Hi Steve B.,
Easy on the name-calling. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion — just because someone sees something differently than you do does not make them a jackass.
I'm certainly not on Cashman's payroll, nor am I saying that Cashman is completely blameless for what appears to be a less-than-impressive offseason thus far, but rather given what we know about the available free agents and potential trade acquisitions, what exactly do you think should Cashman have done?
So far all you've done is gripe about the few moves Cashman has made, but you haven't made any recommendations as to what you would've liked him to have accomplished.
As I noted in one of the above comments, at this point I'm convinced that Lee was ready to head back to Philly all along, and unless you feel the Yankees should've offered something like $200 million I'm not sure how Cliff Lee being in love with Philadelphia is Cashman's fault.
Outside of Lee there hasn't been a single compelling free agent starting pitcher the Yankees should've been in on, so I'm curious — what's your solution? Not trying to be antagonistic or anything, just genuinely curious as to how you would've done things.
Is Chris Young available? He would be an improvement over , lets say. Mark Prior.
perhaps Jenks(b4 he signed), Wheeler(b4 he signed), J Crain, JC Romero,Fuentes,R Soriano,Gregg, Rauch, Balfour, even Aceves would have been better than Vizcaino or Feliciano….
Sorry, but your Cashman/Steinbrenner apologist fish stinks. It is not that some of us want Cashman to go out and make big, splashy moves just to mirror the Red Sox. We just want him to do SOMETHING to shore up the rotation. Anything! Or, failing that, bolster the bullpen more. Or, add some offense to possibly position himself better for a trade for pitching. There are some fairly reliable pitchers out there, like Freddy Garcia, who could be a viable stopgap this season, who would be a huge upgrade over Sergio Mitre or Nova. Personally, I don't mind seeing Nova in the 5th spot to see what he has. But Mitre? We've seen that movie already, and it's not good. He is not a major league starter. He's simply not good enough. And saying that "a front three of Sabathia/Hughes/Burnett should be fine as long as Burnett bounces back" is like saying the Titanic would be fine if only she hadn't hit that pesky iceberg. Even in his "good" Yankee season (2009) you never knew which Burnett you were going to get. Not just from one week or game to the next, or even from one inning to the next. From one batter to the next you never know what that tattooed headcase is going to do. You can't rely on him. Period. And to think that the Yanks are going to be just fine with Burnett as our third most reliable starter — if you actually want the team to contend for anything next year — is ludicrous.
I'm not as afraid of the Red Sox as most Yankee fans — remember, they lost two great hitters in Beltre and VMart too — but what you and others who are preaching this "everything is allright" mantra forget is that the Yankee lineup scored 3 or fewer runs in 54 games last year, going 12-42 in those games. with this rotation, if the offense does the same this year, how many of those games do you think they'll win this year? Which Yankee starter can hold the opposition under 3 runs, or even get the game to the 6th inning under 3 runs?
And by the way, hoping the Yankees fail this year so that we can get rid of "some of the bandwagon fans" is a pretty weak statement, imo.
Defending this current Yankee team and pretending that they will bounce back with all these old guys is grounds for being admitted into a methadone clinic .
The Sox had more serious injuries to quality players than any team in baseball last year , and they were only 6 games behind .
Who cares what they did this offseason , the Yankees need to worry about themselves
Oh, Stevie B…..your post is so riddled with inaccuracies and holes that I'm far too tempted to respond, rather than ignore.
First thing's first – Burnett's 2010 was a career worst for him. He never had an ERA north of 4.80 prior. So you're trashing him for a bad year, and rightfully so….but, you're anticipating a repeat of 2010, when history dictates that's baseless. Nothing has happened to his stuff, he still sports a mid-90s fastball, a nasty curveball, and on the rare occasions he used his changeup, it WAS effective. His career ERA is a tick under 4, which tells me that he's more likely to balance out closer to a 4 ERA, than maintain an ERA north of 5.
As far as Hughes goes, why is he a 1st half pitcher? Because he didn't maintain a dominant ERA for 162 games, in his first season as a starter? He possesses the stuff to be a very solid 2 starter, and he'd be an ace on a lot of teams. If you honestly think poorly of Hughes, you've got issues.
Your critiques of Nova and Mitre are absolutely ridiculous. You're giving up on a guy with his ability, because he was thrown into a rotation in flux as a result of Pettitte's injury, when he was essentially a triple-A kid with no experience? Check his splits on baseballreference.com, and you'll note that he only had 1 bad inning before the 5th inning. Give the kid a chance to grow. And with Mitre, he had a very respectable ERA last year, so your facts are just wrong.
Cashman brought in a "mediocre catcher who has a history of injuries and can't hit" on a 1 year, no risk deal. He brought in a "situational lefty who can't pitch to righties" to face some combination of Ellsbury, Crawford, Gonzalez and Drew. If the Yankees only had Logan going into next year, you'd be complaining that Cashman didn't do anything to address not having an extra lefty. Mark Prior was brought in on a minor league deal, and he'd be making under $1M if he makes the roster. Where's the risk? Same thing with Vizcaino.
What exactly was Cashman supposed to do? He made Lee an offer. Lee rejected it. Greinke has social anxiety….if Vazquez couldn't make it in New York, what makes you think Greinke could have? The Yankees aren't entitled to everyone else's best, yet you want Cashman to trade the farm for an ace who may or may not pan out *coughs* Randy Johnson *coughs* We know who CC is, we know that Hughes has the stuff, and we know that Burnett has to improve from this past year. Those 3 guys should be good for 48-50 wins. Even if Pettitte does retire, if we can get even 16 wins from the 4 and 5 spots combined, that would put the team in really good shape.
Perhaps you've forgotten what Joba and Robertson did over the 2nd half of 2010….let me remind you: a 3.33 ERA combined between the 2 from July-September. And I'd like for you to explain to me how Wood's insanely high WHIP and walk rates wouldn't translate into a significant ERA regression next year.
I don't think that the author is up Cashman's ass at all, I think he's very rational and realistic. You just have an axe to grind and are blowing the whole ordeal out of proportion.
well as a yankees fan things do not look so good for us. one thing i know every year on paper the yankees better than every team in the league but what happen? the game it still have to be play on the field injuries happens and so on the yankees will get the pitcher they by the all star game i hope lol or may be one of the pitcher they have in the minor is ready by then even how things are looking so bleak i take my yankees every time the greatest team of any sport att proud yankees fan
Again with the Burnett bashing….HE HAD A BAD YEAR. We get it. Looking at his numbers, he had an impossibly bad year for his career, and he pretty much has to bounce back. He's not a scrub who throws a 90 MPH fastball and has mediocre secondary pitches. He throws mid-90s, has a devastating curveball, and if Rothschild can abbreviate that exaggerated whip style delivery, his location can be a LOT more consistent. Asking for 12-14 wins is not out of the question with the offense the Yankees have.
Speaking of the offense, when did we become the Mariners? Teixeira got off to a horrible start, even by his standards, and tailed off badly at the end due in large part to a myriad of injuries. The back of his baseball card says he's not the hitter he was last year, and is due to rebound. Cano is Cano, we know we're going to have an MVP caliber year from him. ARod, while not the hitter he was in his prime, is still damn good for his position. Jeter….I will believe he's nearing his end when he posts back-to-back off years. Lets wait for June of 2011 to write his obituary. Granderson I expect to have a very nice year, as he'll be in his 2nd season, and I don't see why the correction he made last year cannot carry over to next year. Swisher may not have another 2010, but you can pretty much pencil him in for 25 and 85, and if he takes his walks, he'll get on base plenty. The question mark for me will be how Gardner follows up his first full year….will he be able to get on base at a .360-.380 clip, or will he regress? He needs to become a proficient bunter, and use his speed more than he does. He could easily steal 60+ bases per year. The offense is not really a question mark. The bullpen has lots of potential…..we know what Mariano is, Joba and Robertson are very capable, Feliciano should be a good lefty neutralizer, and if Logan maintains his new found success, the bullpen isn't a guaranteed disaster.
Some of the people who have posted here are exposing the spoiled brat mentality of the Yankee fan base….if the Yankees don't have at least 3 20-game winners, an all-star at every position, and ESPN talking us up, then we're in for a disaster. It's just flat out ridiculous. I want to see the Yankees win, and I want to see them marching down Broadway on floats in October/November, but pragmatism trumps irrational stupidity.
Thanks to Larry for an excellent article. My feelings mirror his, and I too think Cashman is the right person for the job of GM of the Yankees, even if he does make mistakes.
I can't add to the debate on that. I won't convince Steve B, or the later Anonymous that Cashman is a very good GM.
There is one thought I want to add that I haven't seen here yet. Sometimes, we are so desperate for baseball in the hot stove that we forget the season is a marathon. You can't predict the winner of the off season until the results are in.
Remember Seattle last year? They "won" the Hot Stove trophy and after finishing 85 and 77 in 2009 everyone expected great things.
Oops… they lost 101 games in 2010.
So, do I think the Yankees rotation is great? No. But I'm not going to panic. Given the market right now, and the strength in the minors, patience is not a bad strategy right now for the Yankees
Larry: With all due respect, you're off the mark with your analysis. Brian Cashman is the problem.
Last offseason he signed Nick Johnson, Chan Ho Park and Randy Winn as free agents. All failed miserably.
He overpaid for Granderson and his .240 BA,.300 OBP and 120+ K's. He gave up Ian Kennedy, a servicable #3 or #4 starter in the NL; Phil Coke, a decent lefty middle reliever for a mid-market team and Austin Jackson who was #2 in ROY voting with 106 runs and a .345 OBP.
Here's the REAL question: Why trade for Granderson when Crawford was going to be on the market this year? That was a DUMB move. The RIGHT move would have been trading Kennedy and Coke to KC for David DeJesus to play LF. Then after signing Crawford in the offseason, move either Swisher, Gardner or DeJesus. Jackson would have been called up when one of the starters landed on the DL.
Regarding Vazquez, Cashman actually had him ranked in the TOP TWELVE STARTERS IN MLB on his board! A 100%, UNDENIABLY TERRIBLE ASSESSMENT!!! He gave up Melky, a starter on most mid-market teams; Mike Dunn, another lefty reliever with good trade value and his NUMBER ONE RANKED PITCHING PROSPECT in Vizcaino for Vazquez. AAARRGH!!!
But here's the real question: Why trade for Vazquez when Roy Halladay was available? CASHMAN COULD HAVE ACQUIRED HALLADAY WITH A PACKAGE BUILT AROUND JOBA! Let them pick another three [players from a list that included Vizcaino, Melky, Kennedy, Coke, Dunn, Nova, Austin Romine and others.
Fast forward one year: Cashman gave up Melky, Kennedy, Coke, Jackson, Dunn and Vizcaino for Granderson. Yes, Granderson hit well in September but the Yanks wouldn't have needed that big push if he had played at just an average level during the first five months of the season.
The only GM worse than Cashman is Omar Minaya.
As a Yankee fan for over 50 years, I have not been a Cashman fan for many years. I believe almost any half-decent GM would be able to put together a winning line-up with the resources our owners have given him. (RIP George). What bothers me about the Yankees has been expressed by others. We place a high value on our AAA players, but never give them a chance. Jackson should have had a shot at CF, I don't like the Martin signing. Either give Montero a chance to play regularly or trade him. He, like Jackson, earned a shot at the big leagues. Cervelli, while showing he may not have been a starter, is a serviceable #2. Now we have 4 potential catchers,(cause I believe Posada will be behind the plate some in 2012), and a free agent blocking Montero, who will need to catch almost daily to be effective.
Montero showed he needed to be up to bat regularly in order for his bat to be effective. I see him losing the spring training battle, because he seems to be a slow starter, dropped back to AAA and then later being called back to be the second catcher, and going the way of Chamberlain, screwed up, and much less effective and less valuable, ala Chamberlain.
As for pitching, Cashman let the Lee and Pettitte situations get out of hand. He should have been straight up with Andy, given the weak free agent class this year, and said we will have to assume you are retiring if you don't tell us by Thanksgiving, or the winter meetings, or whenever. Further, while we want you back, there may not be money in the budget to pay you what you would get by telling us by OUR deadline. The same could have been said to Lee.
This is a business and businesses give deadlines to people all the time. If those deadlines had been public there might have been some players who might have waited for "Yankee size" offers.
Here's is your problem with Cashman. He has made MANY mistakes during his tenure. Resigning Vasquez and Nick Johnson? That wreaks of arrogance of a Championship winning GM. Those were both disasters. Pavano, Wright, Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, letting go Andy Pettitte… Consistently bad decision making. Giving no brainer contracts to Texeira and CC Sabathia is not something to be impressed with. Its the way a GM constructs the infrastructure of a team that makes him truly great. At the current rate, Brian Cashman over values his talent pool in the minors. YOU MAKE THAT TRADE FOR LEE AT THE DEADLINE BY THROWING IN A NOVA OR A NUNEZ. Tremendous mistake. What do we lose in that deal? Montero (have catcher depth) Nunez or Adams (both positions are locked on the MLB level by Cano and Jeter) and Nova (um…Cliff Lee…). Not to mention Giambi, giving A-Rod a simply stunningly stupid contract, signing AJ Burnett, Kyle Farnsworth. Not trading for Dan Haren BECAUSE THEY WANTED JOBA???? THESE ARENT JUST A LOT OF BLEMISHES!THESE ARE DISASTERS.
However, as you said, a real Yankee fan will stick with the team, and considering my number 1 team has always been the Knicks since I was a boy, I think I can handle the Yankees not reaching the peak of baseball. But I cannot handle stupid management. The idea of having Sergio Mitre in the rotation and yet I'm still paying a premium rate to go to games is a slap in the face, plain and simple. Wake up Larry, and smell the reality coffee.
Well, finally a NY beat writer with some common sense! I have gotten so tired of the hand wringing doomsday Chicken Littles out there. Every point made is valid as are a ton of the comments. Not everybody in Yankeeland is a Cashman fan, but I am and I think we need to give the guy a break. It's not his fault that Lee played the Rangers and the Yankees against the Phils to get the deal he wanted from the only team he ever wanted to be traded to. NOT Brian's fault. Also, if we had gone after some of the other FA pitchers and signed them and then ended up with Lee, everybody would be crying about that too!
It's a hoot being a fan of the best sports franchise in American history. I agree with the sentiment that a down year might cull some of the fair weather fans and let the rest of who are in it for the long haul enjoy the tides of a team's fortunes. Not every year can end with a WS title in spite of our dreams.
Also, I've read some spots that make Manny's HOF entrance a given but keep short changing Andy for the same honor. If Manny never made it to Cooperstown I'd sleep like a baby. When all is said and done with the pitchers either in or out at the HOF, there are a good number of guys who deserve to be there and some who are there who maybe don't deserve it. I think Andy does.
IF you cannot see Cashman is a terrible GM, you are blinded by the bs and lights of NYC. I challenge you to name one trade where he didn't give up far more than he had to, but beyond that anyone who passes on Matsui, the best and maybe only the only clutch hitter the Yankees had in favor of Nick Freaking Johnson has got to be stoned.
You know what I find funny? That anyone here thinks they can do better as an armchair GM than Cashman has done as the ACTUAL GM. 4 world championships, 6 pennants, 10 division titles and 11 playoff berths, and any of you can do better? And don't give me this crap that anyone can do that with the Yankees payroll; how about those Mets, Dodgers, Twins (yes, the Twins), Angels and Phillies? They don't even COMBINE for the success of the Yankees.
And those who want to blame Cashman for the disaster moves like Brown, Johnson, Sheffield etc., why don't you try reading up on the interference that The Boss played against Cashman in the absence of any titles after the 2001 heartbreaker? Also, while it's easy to play the hindsight game, the Yankees were NOT the only teams bidding on Pavano. The dude was coming off his best season ever, and not only were the Orioles in on him, but so were the Red Sox.